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SIP011: Eddie Lorin on Socially Responsible Real Estate Investing

Today’s conversation is with Eddie Lorin, the Founder of Strategic Realty Holdings & Impact Housing REIT, and the co-founder of the HAPI Foundation. During his 30-year career, Eddie has been responsible for the acquisition of more than $3.7 billion in office, industrial, and apartment community assets nationwide. Since 2001, he has successfully purchased and transformed more than $3 billion worth of multifamily real estate amount to more than 180 thriving communities with approximately 40,000 apartment units nationwide.

In this conversation, we talk about the merits of socially responsible investing, the workforce housing crisis in the United States, and how Impact Housing REIT is different from the major real estate players. Please enjoy this conversation with Eddie Lorin.

Full Transcript Below

Nick: what I had in mind for this conversation was to give our listeners a broad overview of I guess what it what are the benefits of REIT investing and why Impact Housing REIT is different than your typical real estate investment trusts. and I thought a cool way to do that would be for us to kind of turn back the clock at the beginning and hear about how you became interested in real estate investing at the start of your career?

Eddie: well when I was at UCLA I was trying to figure out what should I do with my life? And I thought about the basics: food, clothing, and shelter. I tried food, it didn’t really click with me, and clothing selling clothing I wasn’t too bad at it but it wasn’t really my schtick and then I got into shelter. So I went into office buildings apartments ultimately because I found that apartments are easier and less institutional in terms of moving the needle.

Institutional real estate, retail, office, industrial these are all longer-term leases and you not able to be as nimble or make as much of a difference and it’s really hard without institutional capital to be in that business.

What I chose to do was to go after B and C assets, a cash flow driven business and I’ve always underwritten things for cash flow and not for upside. But the upside is always great because it comes from cash flow.

Nick: that’s interesting. So your first real estate investments were they from your own capital or did you get a job at a real estate company to kind of learn the business before you started it on your own?

Eddie: well I work for a company. We bought 25,000 apartment units in the 2000s so I have extensive experience in two hundred deals that I bought across the country in value-add and rehab. So I saw it all I worked for someone else for sure so that was a really important way to cut my teeth so to speak.

Nick: yeah definitely. I find that’s a common trend among the people we speak to on the podcast is they kind of learned the trade with someone else before breaking it on their own. What would you say were the biggest learning curves when you first get involved in purchasing and managing real estate?

Eddie: you have to provide value, it’s all about value. Value to your resident’s value to your shareholders or your investors and value to your managers. They have to have a nice great place to create a sense of community.

It’s all about a sense of community because if people get value they stay they pay and they refer their friends.

Nick: tell us about the transition from that part of your career into starting up Strategic Realty Holdings and eventually Impact Housing REIT?

Eddie: yeah in 2008 everything blew up and our predecessor kind of said goodbye because we didn’t see eye to eye on how we could work through these assets. He didn’t really care about the end game which was the resident and I’ve always been very keen on who pays our rent the resident.

He kind of neglected the properties etc. so I developed a keen interest in really taking care of the value-add and the and the opportunity for residents to get a clean safe affordable place to live.

So started Strategic Realty and bought about 15,000 and units and value-add across the country. It was really a great opportunity to buy distress and take some of the unbelievable opportunities and transform them into thriving communities. And as a result, I realized that all these years I was an impact investor and what’s an impact investor?

An investor who wants to invest with a purpose so you do well by doing well so I invested in properties and realize this new burgeoning industry called impact investing is really all I’ve done for years.

The JOBS Act was passed which allows non-accredited investors to come in as well as accredited investors in a crowdfunding space. So the opportunity presented itself to form a crowdfunded REIT and so that’s what I’ve done. Went through the SEC and now we’re going through FINRA and we have a viable security that can provide value to everyone in the form of a somewhat distressed investment platform to buy value add apartments.

Nick: so this was started and it sounds like right around 2008 or shortly thereafter? What were the so there’s obviously lots of opportunity at that point in the cycle, but what were the big challenges of starting a real estate investment trust or really Realty Holdings at that point in the real estate cycle?

Eddie: well the capital was hard to find everybody was scared to death in 08 and 09. So you had to find investors who were willing to come in and it was very expensive capital. Because of course everybody wanted blood and they were afraid. So we even though we bought things well we it was a challenge to get the capital to come in and ultimately things got better and got easier.

I formed Impact Housing just a year ago, by the way, the REIT because the JOBS Act didn’t get passed until 2012 and it got refined in 2016 so this is a new venture as a result of the opportunities in crowdfunding.

Nick: so your work since 2000 has been with Strategic Realty Holdings mostly and then more recently with Impact Housing REIT?

Eddie: that’s correct.

Nick: sounds like your work with both companies is focused on purchasing and revitalizing old neglected or mismanaged properties. What would you say are the major pros and I’m more curious I guess about the major cons to taking that approach to purchasing investment property so how do you think about that?

Eddie: well you’re buying older product it’s then the con is you’re dealing with properties that aren’t shiny and new so people want more of the return they turn their nose at it more and it’s not shiny and new with 10-foot ceilings.

So there’s a trade-off but you’re also paying 40% or 50% of replacement cost. So there’s value there and the basic value proposition is if rents are $3,000 on let’s say brand-new product and let’s say that’s 500,000 a unit in Los Angeles and you’re able to buy for 2,000 a unit sorry for 200 a unit. So that’s a right so you’ve got that value the rent of 2/5 usually those rents are around 13, 1400 they’re not 2/5 so to speak would be 1200.

I think you’re getting higher rent on the lower end product because people need affordable housing so that’s the real value proposition. providing lower end product that people can afford there’s only one way to build and that’s luxury you can’t build old product and the Delta the difference between the cost to build new product and to buy existing in rehab is so huge that that’s the true value and that’s how you get cash flow.

It’s hard to get cash flow on shiny new product it’s really not a cash flow proposition. So that’s the difference what kind of investor does that make sense.

Nick: so it sounds like yeah the discount you get on the purchase price is not nearly as large as the discount you get on the rents that you’re going to capture which means you’re getting a better value on buying all their properties am I thinking about that right?

Eddie: yes but it’s not sexy because the institutional smart money so to speak they all want brochure quality stuff that’s going to look great on their on their investor presentations. But the reels not there you the yield goes to what’s basic housing that everybody needs.

Nick: it sounds like this aversion to institutional money and the institutional mindset maybe a reason to why you decided to do a crowdfunded REIT instead of going to institutional investors and maybe to the public markets is that correct?

Eddie: you got that right.

Nick: buy use real estate the way I think about it is there’s probably like the average return is higher but the distribution around those returns is greater so you’re going to have if you’re not careful it sounds like you probably buy a property that’s a complete dud and can really be a drag on the returns of your overall property portfolio. so with that in mind I’m curious about your due diligence process for real estate investing what does that look like?

Eddie: well I get Fannie Freddie debts so I have an institutional due diligence process we first start with a walk of every unit we have contractors go through every system we do title searches we survey we get a zoning report environmental report everything soup to nuts complete package due diligence is critical or you’ll never close on a government-sponsored loan.

Nick: and what are some serious red flags that make you immediately disclude a property from your deal flow.

Eddie: yeah I just talked about one today unfortunately the deals that the yield was so tremendous in a suburb of Dallas it just the area is never going to be anything more than it is at least in the next 20 years and we have a 5 to 10 year of investment horizon. So you want to buy trending neighborhoods and neighborhoods do transition but you want to make sure that’s going to transition in your hold period not transition on a hope and a prayer in 20 years that’s the issue.

Nick: when you think about the transition of neighborhoods from maybe sub substandard to average to luxury eventually. What are the factors that you would incorporate into your projections that are they mostly qualitative or do you take a look at quantitative numbers as well?

Eddie: well its quantitative is reports and whether it’s trending in the wrong direction that’s the quantitative qualitative is can you make people feel safe because that’s how they’re going to stay. They have to feel safe you have to be safe and not to say that areas don’t transform and we’re not necessarily looking for a complete gentrification we’re looking for stabilization.

Nick: having a neighborhood that’s not going to improve is a red flag for you are there any other major red flags that you watch out for when you’re doing your due diligence.

Eddie: well anything that comes up in the due diligence like one property we’re buying we have a major problem with the electric panels it’s old and there’s no way to fix them other than a huge number and we’ve gone to the seller and said we need help with this or we’re not going to be able to buy it it’s just this is not something that’s going to create value it’s an infrastructure issue.

And some of the physical needs on a property you don’t get the value versus when you go in and renovate the units you can get the value out of that or you can create common areas that people can hang out and thrive in.

They’ll you’ll get value for that its state-of-the-art fitness center resort style pool all those things are a creative and value add. the challenge is when you’re buying something and you’re just replacing the plumbing well you don’t really get a value-add out of that per se you get some environmental returns and you get some cost savings.

But it’s nothing’s easy everything is there’s no everybody’s to ask you a question you it depends it depends on a lot of things the models are sensitive you got to analyze whether or not you can get the pop whether your savings are enough are there other alternative funds that you can provide from government or in utilities to incentivize you to help you create that that what we say in environmental bottom-line.

So impact investing for us we want a triple bottom line a financial return of course an environmental return we want to save electricity or water or utilities and the third return is a social return we want to give people a clean safe affordable place to live and we want to make it affordable.

So we don’t rent to people who make more than 80 percent of the area median income and that’s how we can provide a solution to the affordable housing and challenges of workforce housing in this country. Again we’re only building a product it’s getting more expensive and the older stock is starting to atrophy and there’s probably 11 million units that could be rehabbed and made nice so that people can have that clean safe housing that is really going to treat them with the dignity they deserve.

Nick: now the workforce housing crisis is an interesting thing to think about because it’s far worse in some regions of the country than it is in others so with that in mind I’m curious how you think about geographic diversification of how do you target new markets to enter into in terms of searching for potential new investments?

Eddie: well there’s never a good time to do a bad deal or a bad time to do a good deal I only go in and markets that I’ve been before and the good news is I’ve been in 48 states so I have relationships across the country I have experience and so as a result I feel confident in going into most markets because I’ve been there before.

It’s a little different for someone who’s new I have the benefit of all this experience and as a result I look for where I can see something that other people just don’t. or they’ll turn their noses at and I’ll do some deals that are I’ll make a judgment call that I can transform something that most people say what is EC and I’ve done it so many times it’s like a franchise we go in we start with the sign we want someone to see the sign and say I only wish I could afford to live there.

And lo and behold once they get inside they can’t afford to live there a beautiful paint job resort style pool as we mentioned state-of-the-art fitness center outdoor social areas beautiful clubhouse nice social areas to restore pet parks interiors that are renovated tastefully but not over improved and the entire package creates a sense of community that people feel like they want to be there and they’re proud of their home and they can afford it. and that’s a really simple formula it’s not Seuss not sexy but it’s really wonderful to be able to provide value.

We also have health and wellness programming in our nonprofit called happy healthy apartment property initiative and we provide community gardens nutritional counseling health screening all these things say we care about our residents and we want you to feel like this is your home.

Nick: that’s a nice segue because I wanted to talk about the HAPPY foundation for a little bit on this call, it may be quite a bit. So tell us about I guess what inspired you to co-found HAPPY foundation and what I’m particularly interested I guess also in how the foundation is funded and what the foundation does with the money that it receives that’s like five questions and it was pretty broad but I’ll let you take the floor and run with it.

Eddie: we founded it HAPPY because my mother actually when I was young taught diet classes and it was always in a YMCA or some restaurant and it was always a challenge to get people to come out of their homes.

The good news is we have two three hundred unit apartment communities and we have club houses and we have a captive audience right where people live. So the concept of being able to provide counseling and programming right where people live was the most compelling reason to start.

Again it’s a challenge to get people that work sometimes two jobs they’re not going to want to schlep over to another appointment or another class. So that was the impetus we also are my wife is passionate about gardening and – when you see the faces of these kids that are at risk grow their first vegetable and eat it it’s heartwarming and it’s amazing. So as a result we found that when you get to the kids and after-school programming you can teach them about health and wellness and then the adults will follow.

Unfortunately it’s not the opposite you have to go to the kids first and then the adults will come well you try to go to the adults first and it’s more of a challenge. So that was the reason we started we have private funding and we also funded ourselves from the properties to create the programming that helps bring in that sense of community. It’s really just about giving people the respect that we care about them and we care about their health more than just caring about them as individuals.

And so that’s kind of a impetus on why we started HAPPY and it’s really a wonderful opportunity for us to give back.

Nick: yeah that certainly sounds like a very important and admirable venture. Congratulations on doing that that’s really cool.

I want to turn back and talk a little bit more about Impact Housing REIT, so right now it is privately held which for a lot of people makes it somewhat opaque in a bit of an enigma because but for me personally I don’t have any experience with privately held investments in I’m sure there’s quite a few of our readers who are in the same boat.

So what are the steps that I guess an investor must take before purchasing units of the trust?

Eddie: oh well its two or three clicks on the website it’s very simple. the bigger question you’re asking is about liquidity and there are ways to sell shares on the secondary market that exist so there is a market in case people want to sell but you shouldn’t be buying REITs doc unless you’re going for the long haul that’s why it’s best for your IRA investment to make REIT investments because real estate is meant to be a long-term hold and illiquid.

If you’re investing in REITs are with money that you need to live on it’s probably the wrong investment that’s the best advice I could give. but if you’re looking for long-term appreciation and cash flow and you want to talk sheltered in your IRA it’s an opportune way and the difference between a crowdfunded REIT and the publicly held REIT is about 10% in costs we’re going direct to the consumer and Wall Street gets in the middle with a lot of people costs and fees most people wouldn’t have the opportunity to get access directly to people like us without this new law of crowdfunding.

Nick: now I think I probably know the answer to this but I’m curious to ask anyway do you ever have plans to take Impact Housing to the public markets.

Eddie: sure that could possibly be our exit or we could just exit on our five to seven year plan and sell every asset and make a great return for people. So you never say no it’s never a good time to do a bad deal or a bad time to do a good deal but I will not put my shareholders and myself at risk if it’s the wrong decision in my opinion.

Nick: one of the things that a lot of real estate investors and REIT investors in particular are thinking about right now is interest rates. So the Federal Reserve’s hiked interest rates numerous times over the past several years and they’ve communicated the intent to continue hiking into the future.

How do you think REITs will perform in a rising interest rate environment and so both fundamentally as a business and then also how much of this do you think it impact housing is potentially insulated from because of the fact that your privately held?

Eddie: well I don’t know whether private or publicly held matters. I think interest rates are key to your returns but look today the ten years down its 281 it seems to be hovering for the last few years even with all these interest rate hikes it’s still not over three.

I don’t see interest rates going crazy potentially but we buy and we fix the long-term so are we Fannie and Freddie loans which we’re having a fixed rate so we’ll be in the mid-4s trait risk in the REIT. So as a result fixed rate debt is really important and the good news is that because we do health and wellness and we do affordable housing we get the best most favorable pricing from the agencies Fannie and Freddie as a result of doing these deals. And that’s because their cash flow driven and we’re able to spit off a lot of cash flow as a result because we fixed those rates we’re not taking that interest rate risk.

Nick: so socially responsible investing sounds like it’s almost a competitive advantage in a sense because it reduces your cost of capital and I am i interpreting that correctly?

Eddie: yeah and it helps you save some expenses too people always think about oh you’re raising rents that’s the only way to make money in real estate.

No, you can also lower expenses the same bottom line well this property we’re buying a high-rise in Maryland and funny enough there are there’s a high-rise of 12 stories and then there are 48 townhomes that are owned individually believe it or not when they owner two owners ago built they built these townhouses sold them off individually with one water main going into the property.

The high-rise it’s owned by an institutional investor his guessing on what to bill back to those 48 individual townhomes. so as a result they’re not paying their fair share and there’s some leakage going on so we’re going to fix the leaking save the costs and more important we’re going to build back those 48 townhomes exactly what they’re supposed to be paying instead of guessing and so that’s going to save expenses.

Or also the common area hallways have incandescent bulbs believe it or not you can save tremendous amount of money and the carbon footprint by taking LED lights and replacing them and they not only last longer but they actually use it much less electricity.

You can lower expenses by making a difference environmentally as well as you can of course rents raise as well. So bottom line is what your net income is at the end of the day.

Nick: socially responsible investing is really core all you guys do, so I assume that’s probably going to be the biggest answer to my next question.

But I want to ask you how you think about how Impact Housing REIT is different from the offerings of your competitors like Black stone or Turner or the other big names in real estate. So what differentiates you guys for people who are prospective investors?

Eddie: well you mentioned Turner they bought from me so that explains everything. I was the one who purchased and renovated a property and really did the value add and the impact. So there’s Blackstone they’re still an institutional investor we’re scrappy guys we go in and we see what others don’t. a lot of these institutional investors turn their noses at a lot of things now I mentioned that we don’t do every deal but there’s many deals that Blackstone or the bigger guys won’t do because they’ll turn their nose at it.

It’s just a different mentality and it’s a different experience level and look I’m a lot smaller than their so I can be more nimble and I can make more executive decisions. Now Blackstone has a history of just going for a certain yield and they’re happy with it I ought to deal with Blackstone they were our partners and they’ve actually made a sell too early and I think we left a lot of money on the table because it fit their big picture.

I don’t have a big picture I have a small picture every deal stands on its own and it has to make sense and just like children these are every property has its own DNA in its own time frame and some of the bigger guys tend to loop things in on a fund mentality rather than treat each deal with its individual character and what the end result and the best business plan is for that particular asset.

It’s just a different way of looking at it’s not to say it’s not look there publicly traded and that they’re a great investment they they’re one of them they’re the biggest owner in the world you can’t take anything away from Blackstone it’s just different its immense on what’s your tolerance on your risk tolerance.

Nick: so one of the big differences is size I’m curious as to whether you think growing in size is going to make it more difficult for you to implement your strategy of acquiring apartment real estate on a value-add basis is it going to be harder to do as you grow?

Eddie: no, there’s the problem is that there’s such a fundamental shortage of housing in this kind I think any apartment investing is safe honestly so whoever you feel comfortable with investing I don’t think you’re going to go wrong.

There’s just so much now I think on the luxury on the high end there’s some risk so some of the light have Avalon Bay’s and stuff like that when they’re raised there’s thin margins because they’re buying beautiful product. I think that’s more risky but I think they still have a lot of product that they’ve bought right and over the years and they it’s fine okay all sectors will work I just think the real value left is an affordable and workforce housing because there’s such a shortage and everybody needs a clean safe home. And like I said there’s 11 million units that need to be rehabbed across the country and we’re going to do our share.

Nick: where are you seeing opportunity in today’s real estate market are there any cities or states or I guess particular geographies that are standing out to you or asset classes for that matter?

Eddie: well I’m just an apartment guy so to me I think affordable housing will always stay full workforce housing if you can do an incremental value add people will pay for a little nicer community let’s say A rents are 3,000 and rents are 1200 and you put in some money you can get 13 13 50 still affordable reasonable by anybody’s standards but you can still get that incremental value on your investment and that’s what we look for.

Nick: I’ve read quite a bit about how recent changes to our tax code will impact investors in publicly traded REITs how will investors in you’re an Impact Housing REIT which is private. How will they benefit from recent changes to the text with the the tax cut and Jobs Act well the JOBS Act?

Eddie: we already talked about it allows anyone and everyone regardless of income level or wealth to invest in institutional type real estate investments like ours because non-accredited scan do what the accredited investors could do so that’s JOBS Act.

The tax code favors real estate investment there’s accelerated depreciation opportunities and there’s 20% benefit of pass-through two entities that owned real estate and that’s very favorable. This was an our president love him or hate him he is a real estate guy this tax code benefits real estate investment period.

Nick: so you think this is a big tailwind for your business and for your investors?

Eddie: yes I don’t think it’s the right thing politically for the society the we have such a shortage of housing we need to help I mean they’re cutting the budgets to help the working poor versus the opposite which needs to happen so there’s a two-edged sword just like everything in life.

Nick: I want to talk a bit about quantifying returns so on your website I read that the internal rate of return that Strategic Realty has realized on 40 properties that you’ve purchased rehab in Seoul over the past nine years has been about twenty five percent annualized. So that’s far higher than what most people can find in the public markets. I’m curious about what are the key drivers of returns for you as an operator and for investors in your fund.

Eddie: well we target high single digit cash and cash returns after we stabilize. So half of that return would come from cash flow and the other half would come from some appreciation so I’m not allowed for the SEC since this is a non-accredited offering and what they call an A+ I’m not allowed to project returns.

All I can say is that our track record speaks for itself now those returns or maybe a little skewed because the markets were a little different. But there are still great opportunities to make mid to high single digit cash on cash returns and close to 20 IRR our gross is how we target we can’t guarantee and future returns are not predicted by past it’s like the drug commercials you got to give all these disclaimers.

But I’m not allowed to project what we can what we can make but we always target the same returns on any investment we reduce we expect the same results as we have delivered in the past.

Nick: I guess I want to dig in and ask at a more specific question about returns what component of returns that are delivered to real estate investors would you say comes from the ability to leverage with low interest rate secured debt against the properties?

Eddie: well I think if you can buy a cap rate that is higher than your financing that’s positive leverage so let’s say your cap rates is 6 if you can buy one and you’re financing it for a significant amount of that positive leverage comes in your current cash and cash return. And that’s quarterly dividend that really adds to your bottom line investment.

If Treasuries are like we said 10-year Treasuries are 281 today and you’re able to get a current return of seven eight percent that’s a huge premium let alone the appreciation. That’s why real estate is worth the perceived risk even though I don’t think there’s a lot of risk because there’s such a shortage of housing. And current return is how you should measure you are you’re a willingness to go and do something that’s not let’s say a 10-year bond.

Nick: what are your thoughts on buying properties where the cap rate is lower than your cost of financing?

Eddie: well it depends can you what’s your stabilized cap rate you could have someone who’s mismanaged something you could have expenses at five six thousand a unit when they’re supposed to be four thousand unit so all of a sudden you may be buying a three cap but it’s really a five and a half cap once you stabilize so it depends. That’s it the answer is always going to be it depends.

Nick: but it’s definitely related to your ability as an owner operator to improve the financial characteristics of the property right?

Eddie: sure and we looked at tons of deals and we pass on most it’s just the way it goes.

Nick: interesting, I want to ask a few questions that are kind of in I guess the fun category. So what is the most memorable day of your career in real estate?

Eddie: oh one in 2006 we closed 20 deals 5,000 units at once I was amazing where so we were a coordinated well-oiled machine and those there’s exciting times in the business it’s fun it’s a fun business and the other thing I would say is my favorite time is my first once we close on a property.

Setting the business plan for how we’re going to transform it in terms of what our we’re going to renovate how are we going to what color we’re going to paint it where we’re going to put all the amenities. That’s the fun part that’s the exciting part because we truly can transform communities and it’s great.

Nick: another question for the fun category is are there any people who have acted as a mentor or an advisor to you that you would say have had an outsized effect or a no size impact on your success in the world of real estate?

Eddie: oh I’ve had 30 you learn from everybody every day and there have been some great mentors I’ve had and that I’ve gotten tremendous amount from and then there’s snippets I’ve gotten along the way from different people. But people are everything relationships are everything if you treat people with respect and ask for their advice rather than try to sell someone. They’ll be happy to help you and we all have to help one another that’s why we’re giving back it’s a really important thing mentors.

Nick: I agree 100%. if you could go back to the beginning of your career in real estate so you had a time machine and it could take you back to 2001 or so what piece of advice are pieces of advice would you give to a younger Eddie Loren?

Eddie: mm-hmm don’t go astray stay with what you’re good at stay with whatever makes you happy and however you can provide value where others can’t I jumped around like I mentioned earlier from my office retail industrial if you’re lucky enough to find your right niche just stay put and just over time success comes from your experience and your staying power and your patience and your persistence your belief in changing the world and making a difference.

It’s so important to really believe strongly and have the patience and purpose to what you’re doing and be much I was too excited into too hell-bent on being successful so fast and you just got to take your time and smell the roses and enjoy the process and it’s so much easier said than done.

I really do look back and say I should have calmly attacked rather than aggressively attacked because in the end it’s the life in your years not the years in your life.

Nick: that’s an excellent sentiment my last question is about learning so you’ve clearly developed a lot of expertise about real estate investing and investing in general I would say a lot of the things we’ve talked about are generalizable to other asset classes.

So how do you think about learning more about real estate and learning more I guess about other things in general?

Eddie: well if it depends were you talking someone young or someone older I mean to learn you can always read if you’re older and you’re not going to go out and start again but if I’m if I’m young starting out in this business I go and become a property manager. Then I become a lender and those two are the key components of the business because if you don’t know how to collect rent turn a unit renovate a unit deal with the delinquency deal with evictions deal with unhappy residents security issues all the things that go into the essence of the cash flow and that’s their real people paying real rents.

I think it’s so important to understand what it’s like to be a property manager. Another thing is we can’t do anything without leverage unless you’re blessed to have hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and you don’t need to leverage real estate pretty unlikely most people always get a loan.

To understand what it’s like to be a lender is the other key opponent because nothing happens without that lender and they have a lot of power and they have a lot of control and it’s a really important perspective to have. So property management then lending then ownership is how I would start in this business.

Nick: awesome well thanks so much for your time today Eddie. I learned a lot I’m sure most of our listeners did too, looking forward to staying in touch and learning more about what you guys do.

Eddie: all the best come join us.