SIP001: Ben Reynolds on The 8 Rules of Dividend Investing - Sure Dividend Sure Dividend

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SIP001: Ben Reynolds on The 8 Rules of Dividend Investing

In this episode I interview Ben Reynolds, the founder and CEO of Sure Dividend – the company that backs the Sure Investing Podcast. Ben is deeply knowledgeable about investing, especially with regard to dividend stocks. He founded Sure Dividend in 2014 and has since grown the company to be a provider of dividend-focused investment research for thousands of self-directed investors.

In this episode, we talk about Sure Dividend’s quantitative investment strategy – The 8 Rules of Dividend Investing. Tune in for the rest of this episode to learn about this profound wealth-building strategy that drives our research at Sure Dividend.

Full Transcript Below

Nick: Ben I just wanted to start by thanking you for spending some time talking with us on the podcast today. I thought we could start by rewinding way back to the beginning and asking you when you first became interested in investing and what the process for that looked like?

Ben: absolutely, glad to be here. For me, I first got interested in investing in college. When I started college I didn’t have a great interest in investing, I had a bit of an aptitude for math, and I also liked psychology. But I decided not to get a psychology degree, and I started with a finance degree and in pursuing my finance degree is when I really started getting interested in investing.

Nick: when did you start pursuing investing for yourself during that time for you? Did you start buying stocks in college or did that come later?

Ben: my first investing experience was actually I talked to a financial advisor, and he recommended some mutual funds, and this was probably time wise. This was probably my first or second year in college. I talked to this financial advisor, and he said well are you high risk, low risk, or medium risk and I said I don’t know, and he said okay well we’ll do one of each and it was about a 10-minute conversation, and then he kicked me out of his office.

Nick: alright well to my understanding that is very different from how you invest today and I think it’s normal for most investors to go through an evolution over time as they learn and gain more experience in the markets.

So my question to you now I guess is this: was there ever a turning point when you realized that mutual funds weren’t the best way to invest and, more broadly, how would you say your investment philosophy has changed over time?

Ben: that was a big learning experience for me. So going back to being in college and taking a few investing courses. One investing course in particular in college really opened my eyes and got me interested in investing in general. In that course they discussed market anomalies and things like low volatility stocks have outperformed with lower volatility, and that goes against what you’d expect in a market if the theories they taught were true.

And they discussed the value effect they discussed the January effect as well which is stocks tend to outperform in January.

So there’s these all these things and I didn’t end up using all of them, but it really got me interested in ok this is there’s money to be made and investing there’s things that work better than other things and why aren’t more people taking advantage of these factors.

Because in that course the professor would say if you take advantage of the value effect. That that’s not countered in your performance like we try to measure that and make sure that you’re not rewarded for that. And my thinking was well if I had a hundred dollars and I made a ten percent return, and I have a hundred and ten dollars.

That’s better to me than if I would have made a five percent return and had one hundred five dollars at the end of it. No matter what you said like oh it’s not fair you took advantage of the value effect. I want to take advantage of that because I want to make more money, so that’s a kind of was the beginning of my process of being interested in learning about investing. And from there that evolution for me was when I started I was interested in value investing in particular deep value investing.

And slowly over time I’ve moved, I wouldn’t say away from value and that I, of course, think value is very important. But more towards a high-quality long-term perspective.

Nick: as you and I both know there are lots of very famous and very influential investors who have followed a value or deep value approach. Now with that in mind are there any particular super investors that you would say have had a big impact on your philosophy?

Ben: absolutely. There’s I’ve said a lot of different super investors as you call them. People like Seth Klarman or Warren Buffett and they I’ve tried to borrow what I can from what’s worked well for them.

The person that’s had the biggest influence on me is reading about how Warren Buffett invests. Because he’s been the most successful over the longest period of time. And his investing strategies are also interestingly very applicable to a majority of investors out there. They’re not as difficult as what Seth Klarman has an example does.

Nick: when you think of Warren Buffett’s investment strategy just for our listeners who aren’t necessarily super familiar with his approach. If you had to summarize a strategy what would that look like?

Ben: Warren Buffett strategy is to invest in businesses with strong competitive advantages and shareholder-friendly management for long periods of time, and he wants to buy them at fair or better prices.

Nick: I think you hit the nail on the head with that. Now for anyone listeners who aren’t familiar with what Ben does right now, Ben runs a company called Sure Dividend which is an investment newsletter provider aimed at helping people invest better through low-cost long-term investing in individual stocks which is very much in line with the Warren Buffett approach.

So, Ben, I’ve just thought we could take a minute now that we’re talking about your investment strategy to explain the philosophy that you use for your newsletter recommendations and just the broad guiding principles that you follow at Sure Dividend.

Ben: sure that the like you said the purpose of Sure Dividend is to help individual investors build high-quality dividend growth portfolios and we do that through investing in high-quality businesses strong competitive advantages that typically pay rising dividends over time.

And to achieve that like where do you find these high-quality businesses which ones are buys? We have a methodology called The 8 Rules of Dividend Investing, and those are eight different rules that have either historically improved returns or reduced risk and that kind of ties back into what my interest was originally with investing back to that of course in college.

Nick: so it sounds like The 8 Rules of Dividend Investing harnesses various market anomalies in conjunction with one another to create this kind of cumulative effect that results in superior returns over long periods of time.

Ben: that’s an excellent way to put it, and you know obviously if we can’t guarantee any type of returns but these are factors that have historically done that, and we expect them to in the future as well.

Nick: could you give us a walkthrough of the eight rules and perhaps comment on maybe the academic basis or common sense philosophy that underpins each rule.

Ben: yeah I’d love to. With the eight rules a brief overview here there’s five buy rules two sell rules and one portfolio management rule.

So we’ll go through the five buy rules first.

We’ll start with rule number one, the quality rule and the ranking factor here is we’re looking at the dividend history and corporate history of stocks. So if a company’s been around since 1900 and they’ve paid rising dividends every year for 50 years in a row. That’s something we value very highly because it shows that the business can withstand a tremendous amount of change.

I mean the world was a lot different nineteen hundred than it is in 2018 and it’s still paying rising dividends it shows that there’s the strength of the business and that it can withstand recessions rising interest rate periods falling interest rate periods.

Pretty much anything that’s been thrown at it and the reason we pick these metrics is if you look at the Dividend Aristocrats which is an index comprised of stocks with 25 plus years of rising dividend payments. That index it’s very selective first of all there’s only 53 stocks on it right now that index has outperformed S&P 500 by about three percentage points a year on average over the last decade.

So these really established business is kind of contrary to what you’d think is that you know you got to invest in the fastest-growing companies around to get strong returns. These established businesses are producing superior returns, and so that’s the first rule is the quality rule.

The second rule we have is called the bargain rule, and here the common sense idea here is you want to invest in companies that are cheaper than more expensive. Just you know you’d rather buy your house for two hundred thousand than five hundred thousand for the same house and the metric we use here is dividend yield and simply put we’re looking for higher-yielding stocks instead of lower yielding stocks.

All things being equal and things aren’t always equal, so we’re not looking for just the highest yielding stocks. But we prefer a higher yield to a lower yield on average.

The third rule is the safety rule, and here we’re thinking of dividend safety, but we have a different twist on it, and this is kind of going into more detail here. You normally use payout ratio here, and we use share repurchase yield instead, and the reason for that is payout ratio can be affected by earnings variances that might not really be indicative of the underlying business.

We use a share repurchase yield instead, and the idea here is that if a company’s repurchasing a lot of its shares it has a lot of cash to do so and it has additional cash above what it’s paying for its dividend. So if earnings are our cash flows are ever reduced the company has a buffer there and it can use the money it was using to repurchase shares to pay dividends.

And the academic evidence behind this rule is the S&P buyback index has outperformed the general market by about two and a half percentage points a year on average over the last decade which again is very strong performance.

Our fourth rule is the growth rule and here you know I I think anyone would prefer to invest in a business that’s growing versus one that isn’t and distinction we want to make here is that you want to look for growth on a per share basis.

A company might be able to grow its revenue very quickly acquire a lot of businesses. But at the same time, it’s issuing a ton of shares to do so and shareholders have no gain here. So we look for growth on a per share basis, and that’s we’ll look at either earnings per share growth dividend per share growth or book value per share growth and the evidence behind this rule is stocks with growing dividends have outperformed stocks with stable, unchanging dividends by 2.4 percentage points a year from the period of 1972 through 2013.

And then rounding out the buy rules rule number five is the peace of mind rule, and here we’re looking at volatility. Specifically, the lower the volatility, the better and this is stock price volatility. So it basically just measures how bouncy a stock price is. Surprisingly stocks with low volatility have outperformed the market as a whole by about two percentage points a year over the 20 year period ending in 2011, and we expect these trends to continue.

These are just when the studies were done, so that wraps up the five buy rules and we use all those as different ranking signals and factors and together they help us create our top 10 rankings for our newsletter and then you know buying is when you buy is a big determinant of the returns you’re going to get.

But holding and knowing when to sell is the other side of that, so we have two cell rules and both of these rules. They’re meant to take it be taken into effect early we’re not looking to sell quickly we’re looking to buy and hold for the long run.

With that said there are reasons to sell occasionally the two reasons to sell are one if the stocks become very overvalued or two if it’s no longer growing and it has to cut or eliminate its dividend.

So rule 6 is the overpriced rule and that we sell if the stock is trading at an extremely high price-earnings ratio and the academic evidence there is the lowest decile of price-earnings ratios stocks. So this is the cheapest 10% of the market outperform that the most expensive 10% of the market by an astounding 9 percentage points a year from 1975 through 2010.

So that’s really just a huge difference that’s why value is extremely important if you’re investing in overpriced securities you’re likely to do poorly over time.

That’s our first sell rule. Our second sell rule we call it the survival of the fittest rule and that’s to sell when a stock cuts or eliminates its dividend, and this is another telling performance number. When a stock cuts or eliminates his dividend, those stocks have had 0% total returns from the time period 1972 through 2013 on average.

So if you’re if you take up a strategy we’re only investing in stocks that have just cut or eliminated their dividends you’re probably not going ever to make any money at least historically that’s been the case.

We recommend selling in the case of stock does cut or limit its dividend and that also speaks to if a company has to cut or eliminates dividend. It’s because the business is performing poorly and come very common sense you probably don’t want to be invested in poorly performing businesses.

So those are the two sell rules and then the final rule in The 8 Rules of Dividend Investing is the hedge your bets rule, and the idea here is to diversify your portfolio. But probably not to the degree that most people diversify.

The studies have shown that you get most of the benefits of diversification from owning just twelve to eighteen stocks. I would say 12 is very much on the low side unless you’re a very sophisticated and experienced investor. we probably would prefer a portfolio of closer to 20 to 30 stocks reasonably spread out among different sectors and industries.

And though that summarizes The 8 Rules of Dividend Investing with them, it tells you one what to buy and when. Two when to hold and sell and three about how many stocks to have in your portfolio.

Nick: thanks for the fantastic overview of your investment strategy. I have two broad, high-level questions for you. The first is about your second sell rule the survival of the fittest rule to sell when a company cuts or eliminates its dividend.

When that happens usually, there’s a tremendous amount of stock price volatility as the financial markets kind of get used to the new dividend payment that this company’s paying.

With that volatility in mind, how do you know exactly when to sell stocks after they cut their dividend?

Ben: that’s a very good question, and that is something we look at too is we’ll often not recommend selling immediately after. But down the line, a bit and that’s because there’s usually a big negative reaction to a dividend cut and rightly so.

But it’s often excessive so the stock price will decline far more than you’d expect and then we might want to wait for it to rebound a bit. If the business isn’t truly on the verge of becoming obsolete maybe this is a dividend was cut for more of a one-time thing, or it’s more of a temporary type issue.

That we’re not really confident with the long-term feature of the company anymore, but we’re not in an extreme rush to sell in those cases, it might be best to wait for the stock price to recover somewhat before selling so you can take advantage of that rebound.

Nick: the second question I had was about your portfolio management rule. If you follow the Sure Dividend newsletter strategy, precisely you’ll eventually accumulate a high-quality portfolio of dividend growth stocks and let’s say hypothetically you get to the point where you have eighteen or twenty stocks in your portfolio and buying more stocks will cause you to over-diversify or di-worse-ify as some people would call it.

What would you recommend to investors who are in that situation?

Ben: that’s a really good question, and that’s so when you get to a point where adding additional stocks to your portfolio maybe you can’t follow them as well. So you’re kind of at your capacity of what you’re willing to stay up to date with a company.

This probably will say its 20 stocks in this example, and you have your 20 stocks and the next month comes around, and you’re ready to invest more money where what do you do. We recommend investing in the highest ranked stock you own the least in your portfolio so with these rankings they tend to be fairly stable over time and often companies will remain good buys for years at a time.

So you will you can add to your smallest holding that you already have that’s ranked highly any you’ll still be investing in a high-quality business without increasing the number of holdings you have in your portfolio.

Nick: awesome. That’s fantastic advice you’ve just given us an excellent overview of the quantitative factors that make a good investment.

I’m curious if you’d be willing to place some color on what are the qualitative factors that make a business a solid investment?

Ben: absolutely. Qualitative factors to look for are if you can gauge the management and maybe projects or companies they’ve run in the past. Have they had success or has it been a disaster, and they kind of got a golden parachute and came over to the next company.

So that would be a qualitative factor to look at for sure as the management if they’re shareholder-friendly and that’s a completely different topic, well it’s related. But shareholder friendly doesn’t just mean return and cash to shareholders you can repurchase shares, and it could be a terrible move for shareholders if you’re repurchasing them when the stock price is very overvalued.

So shareholder-friendly is more qualitative than something that can be really measured in a strictly quantitative fashion. On top of that really assessing where a company fits in his industry and its future growth prospects is a qualitative analysis. It can’t be done very effectively quantitatively, and a good example of this is if you look at Coca Cola’s history.

They have a phenomenal history you know sales of their primary product Coca-Cola has grown for decades but the industry and the feelings surrounding Coca-Cola and other carbonated sodas has changed, and they’re selling less soda in developed markets now.

They’ve counteracted this by moving into a broad range of other beverage products, so the company as a whole is fine. But if Coca-Cola were a single product company, you would really want to factor that in in your analysis, and that’s like oh that this is great they’ve expanded for a hundred years and just extrapolate like that indefinitely into the future if there’s a good qualitative reason not to.

Nick: excellent thanks for that overview. So anyone who’s listening to this episode the whole way through now has a very good sense of how you like to invest money and how you recommend that others invest money.

With that in mind, I was wondering if you could share where you’re seeing opportunity in today’s market and how you go about selecting stocks in a bull market that’s been historically longer than most and after 2017 that returned more than 20 percent to shareholders of the S&P500

Ben: yes it’s a honestly it’s a very difficult market right now to find high-quality dividend growth stocks that are at least reasonably priced. The reason is as you touched on them this is the markets gone up I believe every year since 2009. It’s is one of the longest bull markets and the S&P 500 is trading at one of its highest price-earnings multiples in history.

This is historically a very pricey time to invest and with that said with the question of where we are finding value now finding good investments. It’s mostly stocks that have some sort of negative news story about them stocks or industries you know a year to six months ago to even three months ago. Retail would have been a good example of that there was a lot of pessimism in the retail industry the health care some healthcare companies today still have a lot of pessimism surrounding them.

The big pharmaceutical distributors are an example of that where does the price we’re going on in that industry. There’s a lot of negative news coverage you hear about the opioid epidemic a lot, and that’s you know there’s some lawsuits that probably aren’t going to affect the long-term nature and strength of these businesses.

But in the short-term, they could cost them some money and investors are overreacting to this information. So those are the type of situations that were looking for right now because that’s where we have to look.

And if the market weren’t so pricey, we could say page you know Johnson & Johnson is a phenomenal business let’s invest in them. But that’s not the case right now because of valuation, so we are having to look for businesses that are going through temporary troubles.

Nick: would you mind sharing some individual recommendations that have been in recent editions of your newsletter?

Ben: absolutely. Cardinal Health is a good recent example. Omega Healthcare Investors is another one. Energy Transfer Partners would be a third one, and they’re an oil and gas pipeline that has had a lot of negative publicity about them that was trading at what look like about 50% of their value in addition to having a phenomenally high yield and having a long history of growth.

Those are three, especially Cardinal Health and Energy Transfer Partners. There are a few others, but those are two that really jump out to me.

Nick: as we look ahead towards the horizon do you see an above-average possibility that we would run into a bear market or a recession in the near future?

Ben: I absolutely do, but I’ve thought that every year for the last several years, so I don’t know. A lot of people will say right now don’t invest. I think there’s an opportunity cost of not investing a very big one like you said the market was up 20 percent last year. So by not investing, you’re missing those returns while I do think there’s certainly an elevated chance of a recession occurring or a bear market, not necessarily a recession.

Because when you look at the just the elevated valuation multiples you look at the US economy it’s you know 50 years ago is growing very quickly your economy is growing slowly now and it has for a very long time, so it’s not like the US as a whole is going to just grow itself out of its valuation levels, and that’s not going to happen.

There are extreme debt levels too on a national basis for pretty much every developed country in the world. You look at the debt to GDP ratios for the US pretty much in a European country especially a Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, and an especially Japan.

Japan’s debt to GDP ratio is absurd, but that’s kind of on a global level. But definitely, the US valuation levels make me think that there’s going to be a big bear market at some point and then you factor into rising interest rates.

As interest rate rise real asset value should decline everything else being equal we’ve been in a 30-year run of basically lower rates year after year, and that’s just started to reverse itself. So that should factor into to lower equity valuations go up going forward.

To answer the question, I definitely see an elevated chance of a bear market, but as far as what to do about it I think the best thing to do is to stay the course and no matter what the market does. Invest in quality businesses when they’re undervalued and take what the market gives you.

Nick: you mentioned a lot of broad economic factors in your comments there including interest rates sovereign debt and those kinds of things.

What role would you say macroeconomics or economics in general plays in your overall investment philosophy?

Ben:it really doesn’t play a role. Everything we do at Sure Dividend is bottom-up, so we’re looking at the individual business and not at the global economy. But I do find a lot of those factors interesting and just kind of thinking about what will happen to the global economy and markets in general.

Nick: Peter Lynch who is this super investor who ran the Fidelity Magellan fund for many years has this great quote where he says:

“if you spend six minutes on economics in a year you spend four minutes too long.”

And that seems like that resonates with what you do at Sure Dividend.

Ben: yes definitely that’s it that’s a great quote and that’s pretty much how I feel about it and that it’s not studying economics is not going to make you some sort of great investor.

Nick: speaking about investing in the stock market I thought it would be interesting to ask you what has been your best and worst investment today.

Now, these could be stock investments or alternative investments or even non-monetary investments I think people on listening to this episode will be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Ben: that’s an interesting question so as far as non-monetary I think possibly the best use of anyone’s time as far as getting ahead and investing business or life, in general, is reading.

Reading the work of people much smarter than yourself. I mean to me like you can you can go and read all of Warren Buffett’s annual reports and all his letters to shareholders and you can really pick up how he thinks and how he communicates, and that’s incredibly valuable, and they’re free online.

So there’s really no excuse not to do something like that and just that’s where a lot of my education has come from with investing is just reading about great investor’s different investing strategies and then thinking about them.

So that that activity of learning from you know the most amazing people in any field that you can find through books is I think the highest return activity there is.

Nick: with all that in mind do you have any favorite books or books that you would say have had an outsized effect on the way that you live your life, and you do business?

Ben: yes absolutely and I’ll stick more with investing books here but one to read that if you’re not familiar with the dividend growth strategy is the “Future from Investors” by Jeremy Siegel.

That’s a phenomenal book and it really lays out the long-term dividend growth strategy and lists out how successful it’s been historically and how comparatively easy it is to accomplish and as a third bonus how you really not to pay any fees other than the rare brokerage buying cost when you take on such a strategy, so that’s a phenomenal book to read for investing.

A more in-depth book on investing is I really enjoyed Quantitative Value which kind of drives home the importance of a more quantitative system to remove behavioral errors in your investing. Because we all have a lot of biases and that will affect your investing performance if you can’t overcome them.

So a quantitative system is you’re basically building the rules of successful investing, and then you follow the output of that instead of saying you know I’ll go you know XYZ stock looks like a good investment, but I hate that industry cuz I think it’s you know evil or you have some other feelings about it, and so you don’t make that investment.

And maybe you know is using an evil industry as a bad example avoid that one if you want to but that would be one reason why you wouldn’t make the logical investment the choice.

So yeah Quantitative Value would be another one and then I touched on the Essays of Warren Buffett is a book that it’s more of a business book than investing but it details all of Warren Buffett’s annual letters to shareholders into an easy-to-follow format where they kind of build on each other.

Nick: great thanks for all those fantastic book recommendations. You mentioned quantitative value by Tobias Carlisle as a great book for learning how to build quantitative investment strategies.

I think that you’re definitely right in that being a quantitative investor helps you to eliminate the behavioral errors that most investors make. Are there any behavioral errors that stand out to you as particularly dangerous for individual investors?

Ben: yes the single biggest mistake individual investors make is selling at the wrong time. If you look at the big guns there’s been studies ones by Barbara Nodine there’s been several studies on the performance of individual investors by getting mass datasets from their brokerage accounts.

And individual investors massively underperformed the market, and this is because they tend to one sell when stock prices go down and then to buy when they’re rising and this is you know like buy low sell high it’s the exact opposite of that.

The number really the number one mistake or error I think everyone struggles with because it’s human nature to do so as you see as you’re a company you’ve invested and the stock price goes down. Say its Walmart you know I’m like oh my goodness Walmart shares are down I’m down 20 percent I need to sell because what if it goes down more.

That’s the exact opposite reaction you should have if you have any belief that Walmart will be around in the next ten or twenty or thirty years and that’ll be bigger when the stock price goes down you should look at that and say Walmart stocks on sale this is great news I’m going to buy more.

And so that’s really the big mistake and kind of what’s I think backwards in a lot of investors’ minds.

Nick: I think you’re definitely right with that. Are there any mental models or thought processes that you think are particularly helpful for avoiding those mistakes?

Ben: yeah that I think that one of the best examples of that is the famous example by Benjamin Graham called Mr. Market, and that’s where you think of the market as your business partner and every day he comes in, and he says hey I’ve got a price that I’ll sell you can either buy or sell our business for. And 9 out of 10 days he’s very reasonable and he comes in about where you are.

But Mr. Market suffers from will say extreme emotional duress and sometimes he gets wildly pessimistic, and he comes in, and he says you can buy the business for half of what I was gonna sell it for yesterday and you can take advantage of Mr. Market in these situations.

And other times they’ll be wildly optimistic, and you know he’ll want to buy for twice what it’s worth, and again you can take advantage of Mr. Market in these situations.

So I think that’s a really powerful mental model to think of as the market says it’s not something you have to do it’s just prices that are offered to you and you can say yes or no to them you are in control.

Nick: that Mr. Market analogy has been very influential for a number of investors including Warren Buffett. It seems like a lot of the things that you’ve discussed on this episode so far have to do with long term investing, and if you would you know, we’ve discussed in detail some of the benefits of long-term investing, but its implementation is the hard part.

So selling early is a mistake that many investors make.

Would you have any advice on how to avoid that?

Ben: yes that’s it is difficult to see here the counter the flip side to selling too soon if the stock price goes down as owing too soon when it goes up. The idea behind there are several advantages to long term investing but I think the core idea here behind all of dividend growth investing and long-term investing and competitive advantages and everything we’ve talked about.

Is to think of yourself as an investor who’s buying a piece of a real business and so then you’re a partner in that business and if you had started a business or invest in a real-world business with a few partners you probably wouldn’t sell because it hopefully it doubles in value you wouldn’t like I got a sell now.

But that’s what happens a lot to people in the market, and they don’t look at the underlying business did it double in price because it’s making twice as much money per share now. Because if so there’s no reason at all to even consider selling it’s just doing what it should be doing for you.

So that’s actually the underlying idea behind long-term investing is to think of yourself as a business owner and then the advantages there are one much lower transaction costs every time you buy or sell you’re paying your brokerage. There are a few brokerages now that have no cost, but there’s still slippage costs where you’re paying a spread to them every time you if you sell and you’re up, and it’s not a retirement account you’re going to incur capital gains taxes, and that’s when they’re huge advantages.

If you’re a long-term investor the money you would be paying in capital gains taxes is instead left in your investment to continue compounding for you and so that’s something that’s really powerful as well.

Nick: awesome to close up this interview I thought I would ask you if there’s any one piece of advice that you would ask a beginner investor today who’s just starting out what would it be?

Ben: my one piece of advice would be to educate yourself by reading great investing books, and we talked about the few different investors. I think that’s a phenomenal place to start but that would be my one thing is definitely if you’re interested in it educate yourself and don’t think that you know you’re going to be amazing at it just because you just learned about it you have to really educate yourself.

Nick: awesome I think that is definitely true and it resonates with me. Thanks so much for your time today Ben and we look forward to having you again on the podcast in the future.

Ben: thanks for having me on I appreciate it.

Nick: thanks so much for listening to today’s episode.